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Front Desk- Open To Public => General Discussion => Topic started by: edzard on February 12, 2008, 04:29:00 PM

Title: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: edzard on February 12, 2008, 04:29:00 PM
For further clarification please refer to the opening remark in the following link:
http://myjapanesegarden.org/talk/index.php?topic=289.0

       thanks, edzard
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: don on February 12, 2008, 07:44:36 PM
Two different things.  Sukiya would best fit under stereotype as it is a term for a traditional Japanese architecture.  "Sukiya Living" is a term coined by JOJG to refer to (i believe) many things relating to sukiya, including architecture, gardens, tradition, Cha no Yu, etc.  So it might fit under all of the terms you present.

BTW, I expected you to mention the source of your quote by now.  ???
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: edzard on February 12, 2008, 08:17:44 PM
hmm,. maybe... to 2 different things...
sources: welll... maybe.. but I have until March 4 or after all the votes are in... shrug, why give everything away??
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: Yama on February 22, 2008, 12:19:26 PM
Hi Edzard
I have not recieved JOJG/sukiya living yet. They don't like me ?   ;D     will you check it ?

 Meaning of Suki is "like"< I like a flower, I like you. I like to drink  etc> some one or any one "like" is called suki mono. mono /person. sukiya is one of archetcual style of Japanese house but term of sukiya also relate to  suki and Sukimono.
"Nanboroku" which consider of bible of tea ceremony explain meaning of Suki , Sukimono. Nanbo who was Zen monk kept words of Rikyu and detail of tea tools/Cha dogu, tea ceremonies. "roku" means record.
 JOGJ may  want to you to  know thir way of sukiya living, but they may not want you know that foundation of  suki, sukimono is based on Buddhism. (that what Rikyu said. )
JOJG like to modyfi or cheng meaning of suki,Sukimono,sukiya thir way;D
It is freedom of speech and mind  ;D
 I am honestly think that chenging name of the magzin will help them to grow.

I know ,I know
 my posting is not answering to your question.
yama
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: edzard on February 24, 2008, 07:53:38 PM
-- as long as you voted on the Poll Mike.. you answered the question ;D

--- and I appreciate the explanation... thanks..
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: edzard on March 04, 2008, 07:08:02 PM
well... there was no purpose for this poll... I simply wished to know how effective Sukiya Living was in establishing that craft and artistic design was important.. and where the term fit in relationship to Guenter Nitschke's selected descriptions....
I gather it fits into something 'other' than those developed by known scholars. As.. my vote was for the Craftsman.

I would very much like to know what the 2 'other' definitions would be, if anyone can suggest an idea.
How should one view 'Sukiya Living'? :-\ ???
(IF it is not a Prototype = artistic,
nor a Type requiring craftsmanship,
nor a Stereotype made by a commercial minded individual which = Japanese garden.
Then.... if it is not another term for Japanese garden as Douglas has described in his editorial.....
then What is Sukiya Living? to people..... what does it mean to them???
-- just "other" ??)
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: Jando on September 26, 2008, 11:52:41 AM
Hey Edzard how about-Sukiya Living means living in a Tea House.  All the definitions I saw for Sukiya were related to Japanese architecture or the architecture of a Tea House.  I guest because Sukiya is a Japanese word and a Tea house is found in a Japanese Garden brought on the idea of Japanese Garden Living.  I for one may sometimes think I live in my garden but I really live in my house!!! :D

Cheers  June
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: don on September 26, 2008, 12:41:01 PM
That's it, June.  Except remember for sukiya, the word architecture means both landscape and structure!
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: Jando on September 27, 2008, 07:16:40 AM
Ahhhh, Don now I see the big picture!

June
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on September 28, 2008, 09:34:16 PM
Hi Edzard
I have not recieved JOJG/sukiya living yet. They don't like me ?   ;D     will you check it ?

 Meaning of Suki is "like"< I like a flower, I like you. I like to drink  etc> some one or any one "like" is called suki mono. mono /person. sukiya is one of archetcual style of Japanese house but term of sukiya also relate to  suki and Sukimono.
"Nanboroku" which consider of bible of tea ceremony explain meaning of Suki , Sukimono. Nanbo who was Zen monk kept words of Rikyu and detail of tea tools/Cha dogu, tea ceremonies. "roku" means record.
 JOGJ may  want to you to  know thir way of sukiya living, but they may not want you know that foundation of  suki, sukimono is based on Buddhism. (that what Rikyu said. )
JOJG like to modyfi or cheng meaning of suki,Sukimono,sukiya thir way;D
It is freedom of speech and mind  ;D
 I am honestly think that chenging name of the magzin will help them to grow.

I know ,I know
 my posting is not answering to your question.
yama

Please forgive my presumptuousness in correcting you Yama. I really like the Japanese language, especially the kanji, and study it a lot.

Well, I gotta disagree with one of the details above reading the word 'sukiya'. While there is a character in Japanese read 'suki', ( 好き)meaning "like(able)", that is not the character I find associated with the term 'sukiya': 数寄屋

The character (数)'su', according to my kanji dictionary, means 'number', and (数寄) 'suki' means "adverse/varied fortune". The character in the middle, (寄)'ki' means both 'strange' and 'odd number'.(屋) 'ya' of course means 'house, abode, store, and so on. I take the word 'sukiya' to literally mean 'abode of refinement', or "place of varied experience".

Also, according to my Japanese etymological dictionary, the character (æ•°) "su/suu" has an earlier form (數), which combines (攵)'stick in hand' (the element seen on the right side of the kanji), along with the element on the left side of the kanji, which is an uncommon non-general use element meaning 'shaman-ess" ("woman shaman"); namely because it comprises an obscure element meaning to link items, and the element for woman. In this character the linked items component lends its sound to express 'chant'.The literal and original meaning of the character  數, is: "woman chanting while holding counting sticks", which in modern times has come to mean primarily count, or 'kazu', and the element has taken a simplified form with the 'link items' element replaced with rice ç±³

There is no connection between 'sukiya' and 'sukimono', sorry.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on September 28, 2008, 09:58:30 PM
Well, one slight error in the above - I mixed up 寄 with 奇 in my hurry to post. The character 寄 means "draw near, or send (to visit)". The original meaning was to "seek protection in a stranger's house (hence the connection with the aforementioned character '奇' meaning "strange".

Kanji are so fascinating!
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on September 29, 2008, 09:38:20 AM
In reference to the magazine now called 'Sukiya Living', I personally find it a bit absurd as titles go, and especially in consideration of the western target audience for this magazine. Not many westerners are prepared to live on the floor in an uninsulated, high maintenance house with delicate fittings. Sukiya architecture, while striving to create a decidedly upper class idea of the rustic farmhouse, with delicate naturalistic elements, and so forth, is in reality one of the most artificial forms of Japanese architecture. Modern sukiya makes extensive use of veneered material, like posts with dozens of interior laminae and edge grain on all four faces (which is obviously unnatural, though most would not notice this detail). All those delicate structural members conceal a lot of metal connections, threaded rod inside of joints, and so forth, as that is the only way to impart strength to structures made from such delicate components.

Puresukiya-fu buildings are often, it would appear to me about a sort of one-upmanship between the wealthy in terms of who can have the most precious or obscure materials in their buildings. It actually is quite a perversion of what vernacular farmhouses are all about. Sukiya is seemingly trying so hard to be humble sometimes that is becomes a case of "methinketh the lady doth protest too much".

Personally I prefer shoin architecture, with perhaps a little space set aside for sukiya elements. The components are stouter, the material solid wood, and the striving after preciousness kept to a minimum. Some Japanese apparently find shoin-zukuri a little on the heavy and serious side, but i find stoutness, so long as it is not excessive, quite reassuring. Also, from an environmental and long term view perspective, at he end of a building's lifespan it will be much easier to recycle the chunkier components of a shoin building into something useful than from a sukiya building. While I agree with the Zen Buddhist concept of impermanence, which is so clearly expressed in sukiya-zukuri, I would not choose such a design philosophy for a place in which to live.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: edzard on October 01, 2008, 10:56:05 AM
 footnotes:
the previous reference was for Chris, whose succinctness trumps my hallmark verbal verbosity.
- second note, - never say never,.... is that the Kitayama dai-sugi when grown in a metal form provides 'unnatural' edge grain due to the shape of the form and determines the cost of the posts... and also equally unnaturally, the grain naturally shows any embossed shape in the form, as the tree edge grain grows to show that relief shape, such as dragonflies, bats, for a special client their crest mon, and so on.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on October 01, 2008, 04:32:05 PM
I was not referring to the use of trees grown in a distressed or confined manner, I was referring to laminated and veneered timbers. I first saw one of these in Hokkaido and was marveling at the 'perfect' grain - until I looked at the end of the stick and saw that the post was composed of 0.5x1.5cm strips glue-laminated together, with surface veneers glued to each face. There were dozens of tem arranged on a bench at the shop.

A lot of sukiya building materials are like this unfortunately, in modern construction practice. These sorts of materials do offer improved stability.

I should also add that it is possible to cut a natural solid timber so that it shows edge grain on all 4 faces. The closest term for this is 'rift sawn' in western terminology, and in fact is the preferred grain orientation for most timber components.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: edzard on October 01, 2008, 05:45:54 PM
 :)
thank you for clarifying that edge grain on 4 sides is possible Chris.                .. edzard
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: Yama on October 16, 2008, 11:09:39 PM
In Nanboroku which is considerd as bible of cha no u/tea ceremony writtrn by one of ten deciple of Rikyu, as word of Rikyu, suki or sukimono( person who like ) is simply mean "like" or person who like. useing different kanji but simply means "like". nothing more.
Hundred years later peple interpret defferntly than orginaly mean. Nanbo was Zen monk.In his book "Nanboroku" ( "roku" means record)memory of his tea master Rrikyu. Nanboroku is sort of "how to" book.  If you can find Nanboroku and read, you will know what "suki" or "sukimono" mean.
However, Kanwa Jiten/kanji dictionary may not explained about it.   :D
yama
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on October 17, 2008, 04:00:10 PM
Sound good to me Yama  -I haven't had an opportunity to look at Nanboroku, though it sounds interesting.

I wasn't basing my understanding of 'sukiya' strictly upon what the Kanji dictionary says - every Japanese architectural and design book I have, some dating back to the 1950's, uses the pair of kanji I mentioned earlier to mean 'draw near a mysterious place', so I went with that. Thanks for clarifying your explanation.  :)

I take the kanji 'suki' 好き in the following manner: the kanji comprises woman 女 + child 子 ; apparently the intended connotation was "that which one wishes to embrace" and/or "that towards which one feels tender", which in turn came to mean "beautiful woman (to whom one feels tender(?))". "Beautiful/attractive" came to mean "fine" and "good" in a broader sense, with "like" being seen as an associated meaning.

Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: don on October 17, 2008, 09:43:40 PM
Tearing apart a word based on phonetics, then trying to found it in kanji may be a wrong approach.  The base word as you are looking at it, indeed some of the applications mean to "suck" or "draw in". You can see relationships between the kanji meanings you both have mined.  Can we look back, if one has the resources, to the original symbol(s) for the application of sukiya as relates to the environment of man and nature?  Since we understand the true meaning, we know what to look for.  I just dont have the talent to look.  Wish I did.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on October 19, 2008, 11:11:33 PM
"Tearing apart a word based on phonetics, then trying to found it in kanji may be a wrong approach"

Well, for me an etymological analysis has proven to be the most helpful in terms of remembering and discriminating between different kanji, many of which look quite similar to one another, and many of which share the same sound (reading), etc.

To be accurate I wasn't actually tearing the kanji apart on the basis of phonetics, but in terms of the meaning of the elements upon which they are composed. Some of these elements are kanji in their own right and have a given reading, but its not a matter of phonemes at all. Kanji are organized by radical type in the dictionary. It is often the case that a kanji takes it's sound, or phoneme, from one of the elements contained within, but that was not the basis upon which I was discussing them.

To help explain the value of the etymological approach, here's an example of a group of quite elementary kanji which I think look quite similar:

木、本、水、永、来、

Or how about this set:

末、未、夫、夭、天、矢、失

Or these four old friends:

火、大、犬、太

As you might notice, I could have put some from the second group into the first, or vice versa. Seen side by side, it may well be easy enough to spot the differences between the characters, which have utterly different meanings from one another - but when you come upon them again randomly, or are trying to remember how to write them (which uses an entirely different part of the brain than that involved in simply recognizing them), well, you may find it challenging - I know I do. This problem becomes all the more intensified when the characters become quite complex, with 10~25 strokes per character, say (unlike  the simple ones above), and remembering them by appearance alone is extremely difficult. By studying the etymology of the kanji, I find I can, in many cases at least, bring the kanji alive and make them memorable for me. It's a learning device that helps me - and may not be of use to others naturally, depending upon age and learning style.


When one comes to study the kanji as an adult, there is no longer the 'blank slate' advantage of childhood to soak it all up in any old order. The order in which the kanji are taught in school in Japan is based on the logic of which are most frequent in appearance, not upon complexity, component parts, and so forth.  Japanese learn kanji largely by rote, and a grasp of the kanji etymology is simply outside of most people's grasp of the language  - just as English word etymology is outside the grasp/interest of most English speakers.

"Can we look back, if one has the resources, to the original symbol(s) for the application of sukiya as relates to the environment of man and nature?  Since we understand the true meaning, we know what to look for. "

I'm afraid I have no concrete idea of what you are talking about - could you explain more clearly? As far as going back to the original symbols, I have done that in breaking down the components of the kanji in question as a means of getting at their deep meaning- and that goes way back to their origins as pictographs and carvings on bone and shells. As far as the word 'sukiya' is concerned, that is a tad more modern. I suspect Yama might be able to unearth the origins of it's use, or someone out there with a Japanese word-etymology dictionary.

In the case of the discussion above, Yama was taking 'suki' in one meaning, with a particular kanji, while I took it in another meaning altogether, using two kanji to make the word 'suki'. Both interpretations are valid, as in many things.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: Yama on October 23, 2008, 01:22:06 AM
Dear Chris.
The word of sukimono is explained in the"Nanboroku" which was wriiten shortly after death of Rikyu by Nambo who was zen monk and Rikyu's 0ne of ten deciple of the tea/Cha no U. Nanboroku is concidered as bible of tea ceremony.  kokugo jiten(dictioanry and kanwa jiten may be explained differently.  as the word of Rikyu while having conversation with Nambo, even useing different kanji , sukimono / siki/like,mono/ person means simply "person who like it".
Since sukimono and sukiya both root of word is same.  My kokugo jiten and kanwa jiten explain differenty than Rikyu.  ;D

I have a  large saw brought from Japan which I don't use. It have been in wooden tool box over twenty years. It is timber saw, two or three teeth per inch, it was sharpened by Japanese professinal sharpner/Togishi.I havn't use it since shrpened.  When Kobayashi san past way, I got most of his carpenrty tools.
I din't want to sell or give it to some one who don't know how to use properly. I live North shore.,Mas
 rainy day or too cold to work out door, come and get it.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label fit?
Post by: don on October 23, 2008, 10:19:00 AM
That's quite an offer, Chris.  Are you going to take him up on it?
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on October 23, 2008, 09:44:31 PM
 :o That is a very kind offer Yama! Wow... I most certainly will take you up on it.

I have scheduled a trip to take a piece of furniture I made out to the Pucker Gallery in Boston on November 7th (a Friday). Would the late afternoon of that day, or, even better for me, the following Saturday (the 8th) work for you? Please let me know. I look forward to meeting you.

I appreciate your perspective on this discussion. I have noticed in several areas that there is some variance in which kanji are chosen for expressing the same sounds within a given word or phrase. An example from Japanese carpentry is the name given to a kind for type of wedge-shaped fixing pin, termed "shachi sen". One way it is written in some carpentry texts is: 車知栓 (lit., "wheel-know-pin"). Another way i have seen is:鯱栓 (killer whale pin). In the former, the meaning is a bit mysterious - I found by research that it refers to the pin used to temporarily connect wheeled Shinto shrines to something that pulls, so it is the "pin that knows the wheel". The second way it is written, as "killer whale pin" perhaps could be said to refer to the shape of the pin as being similar to the shape of the dorsal fin on a killer whale  - or perhaps it is a simple mistake on the part of the writer. It is hard to tell frankly. I stick with the former way of writing 'shachi', since I know it to be correct and to relate to a known component. The latter way of writing 'shachi' as 'killer whale' is however colorful and memorable.
Title: Re: Sukiya Living (per JoJG): Under which of these 4 categories does this label
Post by: kikujunjo on October 26, 2008, 01:57:06 PM
To follow up from my earlier posting on the original meanings of characters used in the word 'sukiya', I have come across some new information that I'd like to share. Please, someone let me know if this is of no interest whatsoever and I'll shut up!

So, in the initial posting I made i was discussing the etymology of the characters used in one way of writing 'sukiya', namely: 数寄屋

In looking again at the first character in that set, æ•°, I used an explanation from a kanji etymology dictionary that said the character is composed of "(攵)'stick in hand' (the element seen on the right side of the kanji), along with the element on the left side of the kanji, which is an uncommon non-general use element meaning 'shaman-ess" ("woman shaman"); namely because it comprises an obscure element meaning to link items, and the element for woman '女'. In this character the linked items component lends its sound to express 'chant'.The literal and original meaning of the character  數, is: "woman chanting while holding counting sticks", which in modern times has come to mean primarily count, or 'kazu', and the element has taken a simplified form with the 'link items' element replaced with rice ç±³"

Okay, well now I have come across another kanji etymology source, and it gives a very different account, and I'd like to share that with you all, so please walk with me...

The character  æ•° has an older form 數. Focusing on the left hand side of these characters, '婁' (in the case of the original version), you can see that the two are pretty much identical save for the bit at the upper portion. In the modern from there is the substitution of the element ç±³ (rice), for the other components, which I previously described as "an obscure element meaning to link items". Well, my other kanji etymology source gives a different explanation for that piece of the kanji. It states that '婁'  comprises the following elements: 母 (mother, which alludes to "succession of offspring"), 中 (middle), and 女 (woman). Taken altogether, these elements give "female slaves tied to and pulled along by a central restraint". When used in combination with other elements then, '婁' lends a meaning of "tie", "connect", "drag", "pull along", and "continuum"

So, '婁' is combined with '攵' ('stick in hand', which means: "strike", "coerce", "cause to do". This is a common element that is an 'action indicator' when used within more complicated characters) to give '數'. The meaning is "enumerate bound female slaves" which has come in modern times to mean simply "count", "enumerate"

Whew!

The element '婁' shows up in a variety of other kanji, some of which are common and some of which are not so common. Here's a few examples showing the use of this element in other kanji:

'樓' (now written as 楼): '婁' (continuum) + 木 (tree, wood)= wooden structure with a number of stories => "tower", "lookout"

A "shoro" 鐘楼 is a Belltower, commonly found on temple grounds.

鏤: '婁' (continuum) + '金' (metal)=repetitive pattern carved into a lump of metal => "carve", "stud with jewels", "inlay", etc.

"鏤める" (chiriba-meru) means: "inlay", "set", "mount"

There are many more, but I think I'll quit while I'm ahead.  ;D